SAV witchcraft...

[R-two]

Question pratique hors débat SVP...:

Lorsqu'une craquelure apparaît, il faut donc la refermée au plus vite à la super glue.., Ok...

Mais comment savoir si le dyneema a été touché ou non dessous..?

[Renaud31]

Si je comprends bien, la glue devrait alors être fournie avec la board...

[PierreF]

Le problème est que je suis loin pour voir la craquelure.

Si la zone est dure, si après la session elle ne crache pas d'eau, elle n'a rien. Tu mets de la super glue et surveilles. La super glue empêche seulement que l'eau ne s'infiltre entre glass et dyneema et délamine le glass...... Cela n'a aucune propriété structurelle. Tu surveilles. Et je pense il n'y aura pas d'évolution. Si la board se fissurait réellement et venait à casser, je pense que tu n'aurais aucun problème pour un garantie !


Pierre


ps j'ai modifié le texte, effectivement remarque peut être inadaptée rédigée à chaud .....

[Jibay69]

PierreF @ 29/08/2012 - 19h30 a dit:

Le problème est que je suis loin pour voir la craquelure. (Et j'ai l'impression que je dois expliquer comment monter les straps, les réglages, il manque peut être une personne dans votre coin qui connaisse bien les boards ........)

T'as raison continue comme ca,  t'es en cohérence parfaite avec le  marketing de la marque

[PierreF]

Et pour R two, je t'ai donné mon avis mais je n'ai pas vu la board ......


Pierre

[Renaud31]

en fait ce qui manque à craft c'est quelqu'un qui s'occupe de ces clients en france

[R-one]

PierreF @ 29/08/2012 - 18h31 a dit:

Tu tapes une board lambda avec ton mât, elle n’a rien tu es content, elle a cassée, tu répares et tu ne demande pas de garantie, non ?

bravo a toi pierre pour venir nous pondérer en tout cas (et effectivement merci pour tes différents conseils)


pour répondre a ta question pour une planche lamba je demande rien


je re fait un extrait des conditions de garantie de witchcraft puisque tu ne semble pas les connaitre ayant la chance de pas en avoir besoin :

we do try to avoid the most common damages as much as reasonably is possible, including those that normally are not covered by any guarantee such as damages from impacts" : http://www.witchcraft.nu/download/Seriesguaranteeconditions.pdf


pour moi les fissures c'est anormal  : meme sur une planche lambda

et les "dommages from impact" devaient a priori etre pris en compte (je le pensait lorsque je suis passé a la caisse en prenant ma planche sur la base des conditions de garantie)


Edit : verdict : 80 euro et 2 gros coup de mistral raté    

[Yukulélé]

Pierre, il y a quand même un élément troublant.

Les "plaignants" sont tous issus de fabrications récentes via Sofia.

Apparemment un simple virement de bord foiré suffit à marquer et faire éclater la fibre (voir + pour Louis).


"Goyter man" n'a visiblement aucun soucis avec sa std "ancienne". (et Goyter envoie sur l'eau)

Moi même (on s"est croisé aux dalles Pierre samedi) n'est eu aucun soucis avec ma planche Hdd (j'ai déjà entendu le mât tapper le nez , j'ai juste du gel coat fissuré), Je l'ai depuis bientôt 2 ans.

Tes anciennes 104 et 89 sont issues d'ancienne fab , et visiblement leurs nouveaux proprios n'ont pas de soucis.


On peut tout à fait s'interroger sur une EVENTUELLE (?) dérive de process, dérive matière ... voir même compétence en Bulgarie. Ce qui est valable pour n'importe quelle entreprise de fabrication.

Combien de fois par an Bouke se déplace t il à Sofia ?


Je trouve que ça fait beaucoup en peu de temps au même endroit ... (les dernières cde).

même RIC qui a sa planche depuis qq semaines à déjà une fissure , ils seraient donc tous bourins ou mauvais ??

Je me trompe peut être , mais les faits sont là.


Sinon pour moi RAS , top satisfait de ma 86L, mais je ne navigue pas autant que les sudistes (qui doivent arrêter les vdb et passer au jibe les gars !!!! alors quoi  

ciao

[PierreF]

J'entends le questionnement. Je ne pense pas car ma 86 actuelle a 6 mois ...... mais je ne sais pas . Ce que je sais c'est que les HDD ont été allégées, sont elles plus sensibles sur le nose, la mienne non .... Pour Sofia le boss est l'ancien second de Bouke....


Pour R one, ok je comprends, la on touche à une histoire d'appréciation pour les impacts, c'est le boss qui décide ....


Pour les fissures, je suis OK avec toi si elles apparaissent et augmentent sans raison, mais je pense, mais ne peux pas voir ta board qu'elles sont dues à des impactes et que c'est une craquelure du glass sans conséquence. J'ean ai eues ....


J'envoie un mail à Bouke pour lui faire part de vos questions et je stoppe là pour moi. Pour précision, je suis intervenu dans le débat ( et je réponds également au questions et mails que je reçois) car je crois dans ces boards. Que je fasse tout cela ou non ne chnagera rien à mon statut de rider witchcraft . Et des fois je me dis que je devrais me contenter de rider, ce que je vais faire demain !


A+


Pierre

[Bouke]

Hi All,


I can´t read it all because the google translation has some weird outcomes.

I will try to explain my version of the story.

There were some misunderstandings with Louis. Louis had a relatively small damage to the nose of his board which he thinks should not have happened. There was a lot of email conversation which I could all just publish here but I´ll try to make it short. Louis was threatening to make a bad image for Witchcraft on the forums. I told him he can if he speaks the truth and the whole story. Off course it would have been easy to say, OK, we repair it for free if you don´t put it on the forums. But that is not me. I know Louis has been making promotion for Witchcraft. He did that out of his own free will, like many of our customers do, like pretty much any one does over any product if he is happy with it. And any one can speak bad about any product as well, as long as he speaks the truth, backed up with facts and does not leave stuff out. That is what forums are for and a big improvement over pre-internet times as we don´t have enough marketing budget to pay magazines. And it is you, the end user that is paying for ALL marketing. I hope anyone does the same over any brand and treat them the same way when they have a fairly small damage to the nose.


Louis was thinking that damages caused by impact were also covered by garantee. Which off course is not the case. Because it simply can´t be avoided at all times.


In the garantee it says: Witchcraft boards are of the Highest standard in construction in the industry, However as windsurfing is an extreme sport Which Involves Risks to Sailor and equipment as Mentioned above under part 1 it is not feasible to AVOID at all times alldamages even if we do try to Avoid the Most Common damages as much as reasonably is possible, Including Those That are not covered by Normally guarantee Any Such as damages from impacts.


Louis was mislead by the word "normally". I was meaning to say that no brands cover damages by impact and in some cases make areas like the nose extra weak so they don´t last as long. Believe me we´ve seen enough boards like this. Who else has even thought about claiming a damaged nose from a catapult with any brand? Louis says the catapult was when non planing. But if the sail gets wind, it can still hit with great speed. Just try it on the beach. A complete rig weighs 8kgs and has more swing weight, speed and leverage than a hammer. Louis says it was just a light hit. I believe him that he believes that. But I am sure that what ever he was doing at that moment, for sure he was not measuring the force of the impact. So he does not really know. Like many people we get in with repairs with any brand, say. And I believe them, they have no reason to lie but they simply were very busy with something else at the moment they crashed.


The comparison with a car is very relevant, a car bumper is there to try to prevent damage, just like Dyneema. But no one even thinks about claiming damage to a car bumper if he´s hit a tree.


The occurrence of superficial cracks in the deck is something else. They can be from impact/heavy compression so if there is one crack, this can be the case, if they appear more often, it can also be that the laminate was too dry, in which case it is garantee. I´ve had one myself and I´ve kept on sailing with it for over a year till there was time to repair it. Which is very easy because they are just in the finish layer.


I have had a german guy with a 3 year old board who had such a superficial crack in the deck and wanted garantee. So I started hitting the board every where as hard as I could. He went: NO NO NO NO STOP!! but there was not a mark on the board. So then he knew how hard the board must have been hit to get this damage. And he could keep on sailing, it was still rock hard. If they would have appeared he would have gotten garantee because it should not happen. Which is why I said to Louis to hit the board with a hammer to see what would happen. I admit the use of the word "normally" was unfortunate and could cause some people to think that we do give garantee, even if it does not explicitely say so. If it was technically possible to avoid damage by impact at all times, and as a result could give garantee, we surely would make a much bigger point of this. Any way, the text was improved some time ago after the discussion with Louis.












This is a similar case, I think Louis´ board was not as bad. I assure that with a hammer you would not be able to do such damage in one hit. And many other boards would have been split open or even the complete nose missing. I am sure most of you will have seen such damages.


In such a case it does need some care before keeping on sailing. It needs drying because with such heavy blow, the Dyneema may have delaminated and water may get through the fibres. The Dyneema will have protected the sandwich, which is also watertight in most places (we do need to make a few cuts to bend it around the nose) so mostly water will not be able to get into the EPS, just between Dyneema and sandwich, usually no more than 1 cc. To quickly laminate and seal the Dyneema once it is dry, it is enough to apply some superglue. Later on when there is some time, it is advicable to do a proper repair, heating up  the dent to get it back out (the sandwich we use has memory and come back to it´s old shape over 80°C), inject some resin underneath the Dyneema and replace the broken glass. But there have been cases where people have been sailing on for over a year. This is all explained in our manual as well or contact me if you are in doubt. Why don´t we supply superglue with the boards? Well do you get sandwich, glass fibre and resin with other brands?


In another example, last year a guy from Galicia had 2 cracked heels on both his boards from a too dry laminate. Both were easily repairable because it was only the outside carbon that has cracked, the inside was still fully hard and there was no water intake. We replaced both boards as heels are always covered by garantee. This july, in Punta Blanca, he landed a back loop with the nose in the reef. The damage was small, a dent, a small superficial crack. Some superglue and done. Because the damage was only small he tried again, hitting exactly the same spot, causing bigger damage this time. Still the repair was fairly easy because the Dyneema had prevented bigger damage and water intake. Off course this was not garantee.


So what does our garantee cover?  Anything that happens when wavesailing, with both feet in the straps (when jumping) and without impact from anything else than water. Deck or bottom soft? Garantee. Crack in the bottom or deck from flat landing? Garantee. Delamination? Garantee. Delamination from overheating? No garantee. Mastbox area soft? Garantee. Finbox broken sideways? Garantee. Finbox broken backwards (obviously from hitting the bottom)? No garantee. Gybing area soft? Garantee. Etc. Just use common sense.


If anyone has any more questions, please ask.

[Bouke]

Another thing to consider is weight, The production HDD´s are stronger but also a LOT lighter than normal production boards. A 77 HDD usually weighs between 5.9 and 6.0kg, our production tolerance usually is quite a bit less than what is stated on the website. The HDD´s we make on Fuerte are about 400 gr heavier. Because people who want a custom usually are more radical sailors. The weight of the boards from Sofia used to be higher too but since we had very little problems and more people asked lighter boards, we´ve been reducing weight. And since they are not custom boards, this is a choice to make. But off course there is a reason why we make XHDD boards as well.

As the current situation is I think the HDD´s are very good value compared to most brands. Cobra has been increasing prices, using their 95%(?) monopoly position and claiming carbon prices have gone up. In reality carbon prices have gone down, Dyneema has gone up. Which is why we had to increase our prices with 5% last year. How much have other brands gone up? 20% in 2 years? But all these brands have no choice but to get their boards built by Cobra. For the windsurfing world a bad situation. Some have been asking us but we have enough work with our own boards.


I would also strongly recommend anyone visiting Fuerte to come by the workshop and see what goes inside the boards. We also have enough examples of other brands to compare with. Even if the boards are stronger for impact than most (any) other board, we pay a lot more attention to the really important strengths of a board, namely inner strength, preventing boards going soft, breaking, heel areas breaking, mast tracks sinking in. Gybing areas. An impact damage with an HDD is local, superficial, usually not in an structurally important area and can be repaired. To repair internal damage is something different.


And the guy with the "fully intact" JP, please check the area between the front straps, where the pad is and then some 10-15cm more forward and tell us what is softer.

[Renaud31]

anyone peut traduire svp?

[Yukulélé]

Bouke @ 29/08/2012 - 22h15 a dit:

Another thing to consider is weight, The production HDD´s are stronger but also a LOT lighter than normal production boards. A 77 HDD usually weighs between 5.9 and 6.0kg, our production tolerance usually is quite a bit less than what is stated on the website. The HDD´s we make on Fuerte are about 400 gr heavier. Because people who want a custom usually are more radical sailors. The weight of the boards from Sofia used to be higher too but since we had very little problems and more people asked lighter boards, we´ve been reducing weight. .

ok j'ai donc vu juste en parlant de dérive du process, "dérive" volontaire pour tendre le poids des flotteurs fabriqués à Sofia à la baisse.


Hi Bouke !


you write:

"The weight of the boards from Sofia used to be higher too but since we had very little problems and more people asked lighter boards, we´ve been reducing weight"


what solution(s) did you find in Sofia to reduce weight ? less dynema , less epoxy ? sanded finish ?

And when this modification(s) in your manufacturing process started ?


Because in France I'm surprise to see that only new deliveries have some problems ? the old no ...

All people in this post who have crack problems, bougth the board less than on year .


bye

[Swell rider]

Je viens de me farcir toutes les pages de ce post très instructif  avec les retours de toutes les parties (Clients, rider de la marque, shaper... manque juste l'avis du distributeur France et on aura fait le tour)  


Moi qui envisage (envisageait ?!   ) à moyen terme l'achat d'une WC HDD 77... ça fait réfléchir

[ric92]

PierreF @ 29/08/2012 - 18h31 a dit:

Je ne suis pas sur que gratter au tournevis une fêlure de glass soit une bonne solution. Un peu de super glue suffit.


Pierre

Salut Pierre,

si tu fais référence à ce que j ai écrit là: " J ai carrément graté au tournevis. Pas grave la finition est blanche poncée , facile à refaire . Bon ya rien . Mais vous me faite flipper!!!!"

Et bien si je t assure que c est ce qu il fallait faire . Je ne sais pas ce que tu appelles le glass mais moi ce que j ai graté c est le gel coat . J ai pas fait un trou dans ma planche pour voir si yen avait pas un autre .....

J ai donc graté une craquelure de gel coat qui ne s etait pas détachée et qui faisait une légere protubérance . J ai pu constater qu en dessous c était nikel .. Voila.

Je vais donc rester vigilant .